Quotes
“I was really surprised to learn how large a population solo agers are. What was most valuable in terms of the advice for me is that solo agers face the same issues that everybody else faces.” (Diane)
“Solo agers have to approach planning with an extra layer of intentionality and urgency.” (Diane)
“Most of us just assume our spouses or kids will step in. Solo agers can’t assume.” (Diane)
“Aging in place is tough. It can be lonely, it can be expensive if you’re on your own. You might think about making a change in where you live. Maybe an adult community.” (Diane)
“The classic mistake that solo agers make in choosing someone as their healthcare proxy or power of attorney is they choose a peer. Someone their own age. […] The ideal person is someone who might be a generation younger.” (Diane)
“The number one regret people have when it comes to their retirement is not starting to save sooner and not starting to save enough.” (Diane)
“Fidelity estimates that the average person will need $165,000 to cover healthcare costs in retirement.” (Diane)
“Maybe you’re not working full time, but you’re working part time. Even if you work half the time that you used to or a quarter of the time at something that is easier to do healthwise […] it can help you delay taking Social Security and it can help delay tapping into your savings.” (Diane)
Notes
Diane is an award winning journalist, a well-traveled speaker and an author with an expertise in personal finance and financial wellness. She’s a former editor-in-chief of Money Magazine and a former deputy editor of Newsweek.
She recently wrote an article for the New York Times about solo agers titled “Retiring Solo: How to plan when you’re on your own”.
Diane’s advice for solo agers is start with your existing network and work outwards. She also recommends looking for ways to follow your interests – movies, photography, books – where you might meet people of different ages and backgrounds. She also recommends looking to neighbors to build relationships and community.
Sitting down with a financial advisor, even for a one-time session, can be incredibly helpful for solo agers or anyone hoping to gain some financial clarity when it comes to retirement.
Solo aging can have upsides, too. Diane notes an AARP survey in which respondents replied that being a solo ager gives you independence, a feeling of satisfaction, happiness and freedom.
Diane delivered a keynote address at an AARP event titled “WTF! (What the Financial!): A Financial Empowerment Roadmap.” In that keynote address, she talked about financial longevity and retirement.
Diane advises that if you are younger than 65 and you’re thinking of retirement, you might think again. Covering healthcare costs before you quality for Medicare is very expensive.
Diane is an advocate of part time work to help with finances in retirement. She’s cautious about full-time work as a catch-all for financial stability. Instead you suggested that retirees “keep a hand in the workforce—not your whole body.”
Transcript
00:00:02.48
VARSITY
Hello and welcome to another episode of Varsity’s Roundtable Talk. Today’s guest is Diane Harris. Diane is an award-winning journalist, a well-traveled speaker, and an author with an expertise in personal finance and financial wellness. She’s a former editor-in-chief of Money Magazine and a former deputy editor of Newsweek. And finally, she’s a regular contributor to the New York Times. Diane, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:00:25.63
Diane Harris
I’m delighted to be here, Derek. Thank you for having me.
00:00:28.29
VARSITY
Absolutely. Well, our interview today is gonna tackle two topics that you’ve written and spoken about recently. Solo aging and financial security during retirement. And then there’s there’s a third topic at the end, but we’ll get to that later. We’re gonna start with solo aging. You wrote a terrific piece for the New York Times just in September of this year in 2024 called Going Solo, how to plan for retirement when you’re on your own.
00:00:55.95
VARSITY
Now, in that article, you talked with Dr. Sarah Zeff Geber, who coined the phrase solo aging, and who I’ve interviewed recently on this podcast, as well as Joy Laverde, who we’ve also worked with as a guest on our weekly roundtable discussions. And both are great resources. Now, in your solo aging art research, did any advice or strategies from Dr. Geber, Joy, or any other experts surprise you or stand out as particularly valuable?
00:01:23.50
Diane Harris
Yeah, you know, absolutely. It was a fascinating topic. I was really surprised to learn, you know, how large a population solo-agers are. And I’m glad that we’re getting the chance to talk about this. What was most Not surprising, but valuable in terms of the advice for me was that, you know, solo-agers face the same issues that everybody else faces as we age. You have to think about who is going to take care of you if something happens, who are your designees for health care and things like that.
00:02:08.46
Diane Harris
But you without a person who you can rely on to turn to, it’s the circumstances, different circumstances that mean different solutions. And so what experts stress to me is that solo-agers have to approach planning with an extra layer of intentionality and urgency. And that phrase really stuck with me. That’s what I think is the most valuable takeaway.
00:02:38.64
Diane Harris
It’s not that the issues are different. It’s that different circumstances may dictate different solutions, and that you have to approach the whole thing with an extra layer of urgency and intentionality.
00:02:52.98
Diane Harris
like Most of us just assume or spouses our or kids will step in. That’s not always right, but we assume it.
00:03:02.48
VARSITY
That’s exactly, that’s that’s a great point.
00:03:02.54
Diane Harris
So the wagers can’t assume.
00:03:05.51
VARSITY
And the other thing that I found to be fascinating was when I heard the term solo-ager or when I think of that, I think of truly an individual, someone who is is solo, whereas Dr. Geber in the conversations we had with her, she was really defining it as someone without children or without that natural support network.
00:03:24.00
VARSITY
So they may have a spouse, but they don’t have you know have children who,
00:03:24.45
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:03:29.34
VARSITY
you know in theory might you know provide that support, but we know that doesn’t always happen either.
00:03:33.44
Diane Harris
Right, right. I mean, i and I think that part of the value of this story for people who aren’t solo-agers is understanding that. Like this advice is relevant to everyone because some of the assumptions we make about who will take care of us don’t always turn out to be the case.
00:03:57.12
VARSITY
Great point. Great point. Now you discussed the importance, as you were just sharing, of having that trusted support network. Solo agents often don’t have the support. What are some ways to build that network that you have uncovered or or thought about?
00:04:11.81
Diane Harris
Yeah, so one of the things is to to start simply by looking at your existing network. Look at the community that you belong to from you know hobby groups that you might be involved in, places of worship, a community center, and look for ways and people whose relationships you might enhance or expand. Start with your existing network and kind of work outwards. So that’s one thing to start with.
00:04:47.76
Diane Harris
Another piece of advice that didn’t make it into the New York Times story that I that that i thought was great is to think about like often, who do we hang out with? We hang out with friends and they tend to be our same age. So their peers. Instead of hanging out with people by age, by you know by our peers, look for ways to follow your interests.
00:05:13.80
Diane Harris
If you’re a movie lover, an amateur photographer, you join a book club, whatever it is that you’re interested in doing, but do it by the activity where you may meet people of different ages and different backgrounds. So you have a more diverse group, a more diverse community, and then look to your neighbors, to the people you regularly interact with,
00:05:43.95
Diane Harris
The single most important thing, though, probably is where you live, is thinking intentionally, again, about where you live. Because that can create a community.
00:05:55.59
Diane Harris
if your you know People often say they want to age in place. But aging in place is tough.
00:06:01.88
VARSITY
Sure.
00:06:02.32
Diane Harris
It can be lonely. It can be expensive if you’re on your own and having You know, as you get older and it’s a little harder to do things, you have to hire people to do them for you. So you might really think about making a change in where you live to maybe it’s an adult community, you know, for people 55 and older, where you have a built-in community and lots of services often are available to you, a continuing care community.
00:06:30.72
Diane Harris
Joy Laverde, who you mentioned, big advocate of NORX,
00:06:33.69
VARSITY
Yep.
00:06:37.12
Diane Harris
naturally occurring retirement communities, where you might be in an apartment building that has people of all different ages and backgrounds and services that are available to seniors and community events, and you naturally build a network of people who look out for one another. So those are some of the ways to strengthen your community and your network.
00:07:03.47
VARSITY
That’s great. And you mentioned you know earlier and in in in your thoughts about enhancing your network. And I think that was a really interesting term. And it almost made me think, you know enhancing the relationships, I think that was maybe how you had had said it. And yeah relationships about the core is a two-way street, right? And I love the idea of going into some of your interest groups because then you are connecting on a much deeper level, perhaps.
00:07:30.67
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:07:31.08
VARSITY
it’s you know It’s not tethered by simply proximity, but it’s tethered by something that really has an equal exchange of intellect.
00:07:39.58
Diane Harris
Right. And it’s also, you know, I love the possibilities for intergenerational community.
00:07:49.52
VARSITY
Absolutely.
00:07:50.17
Diane Harris
It’s so helpful to both sides of that equation. You know, not just from the practical, okay, I’m looking for people who can help me out if something happens to me, but just for socialization and what you can learn from one another.
00:07:58.95
VARSITY
Right.
00:08:05.11
Diane Harris
like I’m someone who is, I’m not a solo ager.
00:08:06.19
VARSITY
Sure.
00:08:08.03
Diane Harris
I’m just your garden variety married with adult children ager.
00:08:12.38
VARSITY
sure
00:08:13.05
Diane Harris
But I’m lucky enough to have a community and a network that is truly intergenerational. And I think it’s a tremendous it’s just a tremendous benefit socially, professionally, and just in terms of keeping you vibrant and vital in our world.
00:08:35.60
VARSITY
That’s great. That’s great. Now, you know as we’re talking about this, many soloagers struggle with choosing someone to make medical or financial decisions for them.
00:08:42.75
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:08:44.29
VARSITY
What qualities do you think are most important when selecting these types of of relationships for yourself?
00:08:49.88
Diane Harris
Yeah, so experts really emphasized me. And it made sense, it’s kind of an an aha moment when once they said it to me that the classic mistake that soloagers make in choosing someone as their health care proxy or the power of attorney is to choose a peer, someone who is their own age, very often, I mean,
00:09:15.74
Diane Harris
people who are partnered will choose a spouse or if they have adult children they’ll choose an adult child. The most common choice for a solo-ager is a sibling and a sibling is likely to be you know within a few years of you and face the same challenges of aging as you do. So the ideal person is someone who might be a generation younger
00:09:44.09
VARSITY
that’s really smart
00:09:44.15
Diane Harris
someone who is mature enough to handle the responsibility and understanding of what you might be facing, but younger, so is not facing the same challenges, might be a niece or a nephew or a much younger cousin or the child of a cousin, you know, thinking along those lines.
00:10:05.36
Diane Harris
And then you really need to find someone
00:10:07.08
VARSITY
that’s really smart
00:10:10.55
Diane Harris
who is willing to do it, who is willing to take on the responsibility. Very often, if we can get ourselves to make the choice, we don’t do the second beat of that, which is talk to the person and make sure they’re on board because you don’t always know. And then you want to revisit.
00:10:32.53
Diane Harris
every couple of years because circumstances change, their circumstances do, your circumstances do, the person who made sense two years ago may not be the person who makes sense today.
00:10:35.12
VARSITY
That’s a great point.
00:10:43.90
Diane Harris
So those are some of the things you want to think about.
00:10:46.79
VARSITY
That’s a great point. And, you know, I know it gets, it’s probably a little touchy, but the vetting process, because you know, somebody as a friend or you know whatnot but to turn over such personal decisions to them like medical or financial. you know Any thoughts on that? I realize it’s very particular for each individual situation. but
00:11:09.79
Diane Harris
Well, I think, yeah, I know I think that’s a great, that’s a great question. And I think that, you know, one of the things that we as personal finance experts tell people all the time when they’re doing a will or you want to write down what you want to happen, what your wish list is for your care.
00:11:36.51
Diane Harris
but also personal things like, you know, how you want your pet taken care of for, you know, just, you know, the whole gamut of things. And so I think when you’re vetting someone,
00:11:49.11
Diane Harris
You want to have those thoughts in mind and you want to have that discussion like, this is what I want. Would you feel comfortable doing this? you know If you want them to run a second opinion by someone, you know here’s who I’d want you to talk to.
00:12:06.57
Diane Harris
Would you do that for me? You really have to kind of get, I don’t know if down and dirty is the right expression, but kind of, right?
00:12:12.03
VARSITY
Sure.
00:12:14.37
Diane Harris
like you really You have to be willing to go there And the payoff for going there is that you will feel so much more comfortable. And then you’ve set you can set it and forget it for a little bit of time.
00:12:29.56
VARSITY
Sure.
00:12:29.70
Diane Harris
And you have that peace of mind.
00:12:33.08
VARSITY
that’s yeah Those are excellent points, and my wife and I just revisited our will, and you know as we were doing that, realized how incredibly outdated it was you know when we did it, when our son was quite young.
00:12:42.57
Diane Harris
Yeah.
00:12:45.35
VARSITY
but So you know there are a lot of concerns and that we’ve been talking about that solo-agers have, and financial security is, of course, a big one. They don’t have the immediate family members to rely on for the financial support should immediate emergencies come along for long-term care.
00:12:56.48
Diane Harris
Yep.
00:13:00.55
VARSITY
Without that traditional family support, how can solo agers create a financial safety net?
00:13:05.48
Diane Harris
Yep.
00:13:05.50
VARSITY
I know that’s a major part of what you know do write about and have kind of studied over the years, if you will. But really to cover those financial you needs in the future or for emergencies, and how is that maybe different from what you know people who aren’t solo agers, what they might do?
00:13:24.24
Diane Harris
Yeah. Well, I think that it’s certainly true that it’s critical. And solo-agers do have particular challenges when it comes to money. They tend to have less in income because it’s one income versus verses two. And they tend to have less in savings. So they have fewer assets to work with.
00:13:48.49
Diane Harris
And that means, again, like you have to be extra special careful. It’s back to that intentionality and the urgency. So there are a couple of things that I would suggest.
00:13:58.52
Diane Harris
First of all, not having money for emergencies is the thing that causes the most anxiety in everyone.
00:14:08.29
VARSITY
Sean.
00:14:08.69
Diane Harris
Solo-ager, young person, like just across the board, research shows that the thing that gives us the most financial anxiety is the feeling that we’re one emergency away from financial disaster.
00:14:23.35
Diane Harris
so thing a plan for emergencies. It goes beyond, you know, the traditional advice of an emergency fund. It’s really thinking through, like, what are the what ifs? What could happen? Having a plan and a sense of control, like who you could turn to, if you had to move, you know, like, where would you go? Could you downsize? Like, going through the what ifs is as important as having an emergency fund because you want to have a sense of control.
00:14:52.74
Diane Harris
An emergency fund, just having some money set aside for emergencies, is critical. The way to do that, if you’re still working, you know open an account that’s dedicated to that, that says, my emergency fund. Because money that you have labeled for a specific purpose is money that you’re likely to not touch. And then automate from your paycheck You can do it through your bank, through your employer, just whether it’s $50 a week, $25 a week, a certain amount of money that goes into that account. And then the other thing you want to do is you don’t want to use it, but you want to have it available to you, lines of credit. If you own your own home, a home equity line of credit that you don’t tap, but it’s your emergency fund if you had to tap it. And a credit card.
00:15:45.81
Diane Harris
that you then put in the freezer in a block of ice you know and that you never use, but that it’s there for you if you need it. And just knowing what you would do, where you could turn, brings peace of mind. Oh, I’m sorry. One other thing that I just want to say is that sitting down for a one-time session with a financial advisor to go through all of that is another way of creating a safety net. And there are a lot of pro bono resources if you can’t afford it.
00:16:15.97
Diane Harris
Often your local area on aging, your local agency on aging can suggest pro bono planners who will do it, local senior center, AARP, so you can get free help.
00:16:31.80
VARSITY
Great. Good thoughts, good suggestions. And you know it is just the whole notion of sitting down and thinking through it so that if something does happen, when your mind is racing and you can’t focus, at least knowing where to start and having something, even if it was a year or two before that you jotted it down, just having that to start with, I think you know would be comforting for a lot of people.
00:16:47.81
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:16:56.15
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:17:02.23
VARSITY
and So you know when we’re talking about solo aging, we’re and we’ve been talking a lot about you know some of the negative or stressful aspects, in writing the article, were you able to uncover any benefits or positive things about being a solo ager?
00:17:16.32
Diane Harris
I am so glad you asked that question. Absolutely. In fact, there was an AARP study, I think it was last year, about solo aging. And they asked respondents for you know their feelings about being a solo ager. And the first three responses were all positive.
00:17:36.02
Diane Harris
it was you know surprising independence and feeling satisfied and happy with their lives. And the number one positive aspect was freedom.
00:17:47.83
Diane Harris
So you know there are benefits to not having to run what you want to do by somebody. If you want to travel, you can travel. you know Whatever your idea of an ideal retirement or just you know what you want to do as you grow older, you don’t have to compromise. You don’t have to get anybody’s permission. you know So there’s a great freedom in that. And I think that that’s a huge benefit.
00:18:16.45
Diane Harris
you know for solo agents.
00:18:19.26
VARSITY
Great point. Good. So now I’m curious, what are you looking forward to as you age?
00:18:25.55
Diane Harris
I am looking forward to sort of, you know I hate to be a cliche, I feel like I’m looking forward to the things you always hear people look forward to, but you know the most precious commodity to me is time.
00:18:39.31
VARSITY
Yep.
00:18:41.27
Diane Harris
So I am looking forward to, you know, I still work full time and full throttle full time. So I’m looking forward to slowing down a little bit. I’m looking forward to time to be more present for the people who I care about, to be able to be more in the moment to take walks and to, you know, like just all of that stuff just to take life a little at a little bit of a slower pace to be more present for the people who I care about, including myself.
00:19:20.89
Diane Harris
And to travel. I really do want to travel. And I haven’t I haven’t done a lot of that. So I feel a little bit like a cliche, but truly,
00:19:31.02
VARSITY
But hey, there’s a reason there’s a reason for that, right? And you know I mean, what are they?
00:19:33.27
Diane Harris
Yeah. And also I have a couple of passion projects that I, you know, so I have a, a movie, an idea for a movie that I’ve had since I left graduate school.
00:19:50.89
VARSITY
Interesting.
00:19:51.04
Diane Harris
So here’s an idea I’ve been nursing for more than 30 years, for more than 40 years., and I would love to be able to do a magazine article and see if I could get it done.
00:20:02.78
Diane Harris
If I could get someone to look at a treatment, it’s based on a true story. I’m surprised that nobody has picked it up. I think it has Clooney pit, then Affleck like that, that, that sort of thing all over it.
00:20:19.83
Diane Harris
So there’s one.
00:20:20.16
VARSITY
Very cool. That’s great. I can’t wait to see how that comes about. So shifting gears, you had done a keynote at a recent AARP event. And you spoke earlier this year in New York about financial longevity and retirement. And in this speech, you paused for some reassurance and a promise.
00:20:44.77
VARSITY
And you said that no matter where someone is in their financial journey, you can come up with strategies to make your money last your lifetime. So for those who may have begun saving later than ideal, what advice do you have to help them maximize their savings now?
00:21:01.21
Diane Harris
First of all, I really and truly believe that wherever you are, there are steps that you can take and I think it’s critical for people to understand that because the number one regret people have when it comes to their money in retirement is not starting to save sooner and not starting to save enough.
00:21:18.97
Diane Harris
And it’s important for people to realize, first of all, that everyone shares that, me too, even though I do this for an actual living. You know, I have, I often say, and I said it, I think in this, in this speech that believe me because I’ve done this for 40 years and I’m an actual expert, but also because I personally made every mistake there is to make when it comes to your money and I’m living proof you can bounce back.
00:21:44.50
Diane Harris
So that’s true when it comes to getting a late start on savings. If you’re still working, What you want to do right now is pump it up you know to use that old SNL sketch.
00:21:56.53
VARSITY
Sure.
00:21:57.37
Diane Harris
So ah you know whatever you can do right now, the first thing is if you’re working for a company that offers an employer-sponsored plan and it has a match and you are not contributing up to the match, like there is no excuse.
00:22:15.83
Diane Harris
You’ve got to do that right away. And one of the benefits of getting older is that it you often have to wait when you’re younger to vest, and people move companies a lot, and you might be afraid of layoffs.
00:22:29.49
Diane Harris
When you reach full retirement age, you’re automatically vested in those contributions. So even if you’ve been at that company for a month, you get the full match.
00:22:38.15
VARSITY
Interesting.
00:22:41.32
Diane Harris
So there’s nothing you have to worry about. you know It’s 100% return on your money, so do that. If you’re already doing that and you have the wherewithal to save more, really just pump it up to what you can. People 50 and older can contribute more than younger people. There are catch-up contributions. Starting next year, there’s going to be a special supersizing catch-up contribution for people between the ages of 60 and 63.
00:23:11.15
Diane Harris
So you can do even more. I mean, it gets up to crazy amounts of money, like over 30,000 for that 60 to 63. And you know my feeling is if you have enough to contribute that much, you probably are not that worried about but retirement savings. But the idea is to do as much as you can. And when you do it automatically, you often automatically adjust your budget so you don’t feel it. So that’s the that’s the first thing.
00:23:40.77
Diane Harris
I would also say you have to look for ways to reduce your expenses to create the possibility of saving.
00:23:40.88
VARSITY
That’s.
00:23:53.07
Diane Harris
And the number one thing that I would say in this regard, there are lots of smaller things that you can do. And I have done them and you can talk about them. But if you are someone who still has an active open branch of the bank of mom and dad for adult children, you’ve got to think about shutting that sucker down. I mean, again, this is something that I’ve done even, you know, against my own advice that your children you want to do right by them, you want to give them a good launch in life. But research shows that it really, really hurts people’s ability to save for retirement, to retire when they want to. So that’s the number one thing, is to start thinking about shutting down the bank of mom and dad.
00:24:44.23
VARSITY
That’s a great point. And you know it is just so, so you’re probably you’re right, something that nobody wants to.
00:24:47.17
Diane Harris
00:24:52.69
VARSITY
do They want to feel as if they’re being good parents. But at some point, you’re probably being a better parent by focusing on your own financial security so that your child doesn’t have to worry about you later in life.
00:25:03.44
Diane Harris
Yeah, absolutely. And also helping them towards it towards true independence. I mean, if if you want to reassure yourself that you’re actually doing the right thing as a parent, there it is. I mean, it’s part of our responsibility to help them truly launch and be able to do things on their own.
00:25:23.30
VARSITY
That’s great. That’s really smart. Thank you. So we know health care is a huge expense in retirement. How can retirees plan for health care costs and to avoid depleting their savings?
00:25:34.00
Diane Harris
Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s a huge thing in retirement fidelity estimates that that people will need 100 the average person will need $165,000 just to cover health care costs over the course of the retirement.
00:25:48.88
VARSITY
Wow.
00:25:50.14
Diane Harris
So it’s so it’s a big number. So that’s $315,000 if you’re, you know, as a couple. The first thing that I would say is if you are younger than 65 and you are thinking of retiring early, you might think again because those years before, you know, covering your health care costs, before you qualify for Medicare if you’re not working is really, really expensive. Nearly half of people who take Social Security early do so in order to pay for health care costs. So if you can do whatever you can do to bridge that, maybe you have access to retiree coverage through a former employer. Many people don’t. Or COBRA workplace coverage.
00:26:45.98
Diane Harris
But the you really want to try, if you can, to bridge yourself to 65. And when you are eligible for Medicare, people often opt for whatever the lowest premium option is when it comes to health insurance. And actually, you might be better off to pay a little bit more in premiums and get more coverage for your out-of-pocket costs. Of that $165,000, nearly half goes to deductibles, coinsurance, and copays. So if you can get health insurance, traditional Medicare plus a medica a really comprehensive Medigap policy like Plan G,
00:27:39.21
Diane Harris
or an advantage plan, but one that where the premiums are a little higher, but you’re paying less out of pocket for things like co-pays, it’s often worth the trade-off. So think about that when you’re when you’re thinking about health insurance coverage.
00:27:57.09
VARSITY
Yeah, that’s, you know, that, that is interesting. Just, you know, thinking about the, the deductibles and everything that goes along with it that I think people don’t often think about, but also to your point, we might think that, , you know, we can kick the can down the road, if you will, , uh, for some of those costs by getting the lowest cost right now, but you really should be looking at value, right? Not just simply the lowest cost.
00:28:24.57
Diane Harris
Well, the lowest cost what will be the lowest cost in the long run is really is really what I’m talking about. We often think about, well, what are we paying for this policy? And that’s what the we’re going for is the lowest cost. But if you’re going to have a lot in, and it’s unpredictable, right? like I’m a you know generally a very, very healthy person. And year after year, I have very little in the way of health care costs until this year. And I and i had a health emergency.
00:28:55.25
Diane Harris
If I had not had, you know, if I had gone for the lowest version, I, you know, I am of Medicare age and I have a Medicare policy and a Medigap policy plan G and after my $240 deductible.
00:29:10.20
Diane Harris
You know, I didn’t pay anything for the out-of-pocket costs. It was, you know, very expensive. Hospitals stay lots of doctors afterwards. I’m totally fine now.
00:29:20.26
VARSITY
Good, I’m glad to hear that.
00:29:20.95
Diane Harris
But you never know when that’s going to happen. And I would have been, you know, it would not have been the cheapest policy if I had just been going by what my pre my monthly premiums were.
00:29:33.13
VARSITY
That’s a great point. That’s a great point. You’d be in a probably very different financial situation now if you hadn’t made that decision.
00:29:36.98
Diane Harris
Yes. Yes. Very grateful.
00:29:40.57
VARSITY
So you know, you’re a financial journalist, obviously, as we’ve talked about, you’ve been reporting on retirement savings for many years. What are some of the biggest changes in saving strategies and attitudes that you have come across or that you’ve observed over the years?
00:29:55.41
Diane Harris
Yeah. Well, I think there are two huge shifts that have really changed the landscape for everyone. The first thing is, you know, is the shift in the responsibility for retirement savings to individuals from the employer. i mean For many, many years pensions were a thing. And outside of the public sector now, they’re really rare.
00:30:27.35
Diane Harris
And so truly the onus is on individuals to to come up with a strategy for what their income will be in retirement and that requires a totally different mindset.
00:30:42.92
Diane Harris
And along with that, because they’re you know people were not stepping up and and contributing to their 401ks and similar plans in the way that they need to, to replace pensions, there have been a lot of changes in the way those plans are being managed. Automation of savings and defaulting people into plans. And that’s an ongoing thing, because what we found is that that most plans now default people into the into the plan so they don’t sign up they have to opt out and that’s increased participation rates but they’re saving at too low a rate because they’re defaulted into something that’s not going to be able to sustain them in retirement so there’s a lot of shifts going on with that in in putting the responsibility
00:31:37.50
Diane Harris
for funding your retirement on the individual. So that’s one big shift. And then the second big shift that we’re right in the middle of now is just rethinking the very notion of retirement. you know It used to be you work, you work, you work, you work, and then you stopped and you retired. So there was it was very black and white. it was you know there was There was a working period and then you retired and then there was an end date.
00:32:04.68
Diane Harris
And now retirement is much more of a spectrum, a continuum. And a change that I think is quite wonderful and has a lot of potential for people. But it’s a different way of thinking about retirement that retirement doesn’t necessarily mean not working at all. So those are the two big shifts that I see.
00:32:29.68
VARSITY
you know Absolutely, and it was interesting, yesterday I was down in Baltimore doing some group discussions with older adults and you everybody in the group said that they were not planning on retiring, that the word retirement was a negative to them because of exactly what you’re saying. And yeah this was in a community setting and they they were really encouraging and suggesting that the community set up co-working stations and perhaps even have a a part-time administrative assistant that could work there and and really support that.
00:33:04.81
VARSITY
And another couple was looking at having two apartments adjacent to each other that they could actually take you know rent, if you will, and using one as a studio and a workspace, and the other as their living space.
00:33:19.86
VARSITY
So just interesting how this group was really, it was a very urban you know group, but really thinking about
00:33:24.14
Diane Harris
Yeah.
00:33:27.15
VARSITY
what was going to meet their lifestyle, not where can we retire.
00:33:29.00
Diane Harris
Mm hmm. I love that. I love the idea of these of of these communities having co working stations and the idea of an administrative assistance. I think that’s so cool. I love that.
00:33:44.73
VARSITY
Yeah, it’s interesting. and you know Speaking of working longer, your pardon me, you were cautious about full-time work as a catch-all for financial stability. you know Instead, you suggested that retirees keep a hand in the workforce, not your whole body. I love that that phrase. Talk about that strategy.
00:34:01.03
Diane Harris
Sure. So I have to tell you that it is a pet peeve of mine when people suggest experts or government officials.
00:34:11.71
Diane Harris
And that’s people of both parties. like This is a nonpartisan issue.
00:34:17.09
VARSITY
Mm hmm, sure.
00:34:18.94
Diane Harris
People constantly suggest that just working longer is the solution to people not having enough money for retirement or people like to call it a retirement crisis. I do not. I don’t think we’re in crisis. There are things we need to do but you know people figure it out and telling them that they’re in crisis does not does not help. So the reason that I can’t stand it even though it’s absolutely true that working longer can really help your financial situation. that you know you know Even just a couple of years, extending it by a couple of years, can give you much more money in retirement, both because it delays your collecting of social security, it delays you having to tap savings. So theoretically, it’s a good idea, but come on, let’s live in the real world.
00:35:11.24
Diane Harris
And in the real world, hello ageism, you know, people often want to work but can’t work.
00:35:18.07
VARSITY
Mm hmm.
00:35:18.72
Diane Harris
Also, hello health care issues. We get older and, you know, the reason that a lot of people um retire earlier than they expect to are either because they were laid off or they have health issues. So it’s not always within our control to simply work longer. And then again, you know not every everyone, especially people who have been you know look really working like crazy, want to work until they’re 70. Maybe you want to slow down some. So you take the theoretical positives
00:35:54.94
Diane Harris
um And maybe you’re not working full-time, but you work part-time. Even if you work half the time you used to, or a quarter of the time, at something that may be easier to do health-wise, may be easier to do in terms of ageism because you’re a consultant, you’re not on staff, you’re not taking a staff position.
00:36:18.07
Diane Harris
You’re not earning the same big salary that may make you unattractive to employers. But it has many of the same benefits. you know It can help you delay taking Social Security. It can help you delay tapping into your savings or at least tapping as much of your savings. And it keeps you, from a social standpoint,
00:36:42.83
Diane Harris
engaged and again, you know, like in the world. So it helps with some of the loneliness and finding my purpose and meaning in retirement.
00:36:51.78
VARSITY
Sure.
00:36:52.28
Diane Harris
So I think it’s an elegant solution.
00:36:54.53
VARSITY
All the quality of life sorts of things that we’re all striving for.
00:36:56.46
Diane Harris
Yeah, yes, exactly.
00:36:58.80
VARSITY
Now, I’m curious. You mentioned ageism a couple of times. And over your career, you know you’ve been studying this population as it relates to financial, and I’m sure other you know several other topics.
00:37:09.90
VARSITY
But talk a little about ageism. Is it with the aging population? We’ve all seen the studies with the boomers, you know now well over 65 in a lot of instances.
00:37:21.47
VARSITY
Is ageism becoming a bigger issue? Are we somehow you know coping with it or tackling it? Or is it just something that we’ll always be?
00:37:34.60
Diane Harris
well the realist in me and might say it will always be the optimist in me, and that is two thirds of me. So more than half hopes that that that that’s not the case. I think that we are redefining, as we’ve talked about, you know in and as we redefine what retirement means, I think that will help
00:38:07.32
Diane Harris
employers and other people see that older workers are still really, really important in terms of expertise and and what they bring to the table. I don’t think ageism is going away. I think it is, I think it permeates the workplace. I think it is not talked about. I think it’s hidden through, you know, employers saying they’re just getting rid of in terms of layoffs, their highest salaried employees, I think it’s still there. I think that there are all sorts of studies, and I wish people would pay attention to them, of the higher productivity of intergenerational of an intergenerational workforce. So if I’m a big believer in appealing not to
00:39:02.57
Diane Harris
someone’s innate humanity, but rather to the bottom line, because that’s what businesses are about.
00:39:06.90
VARSITY
Sure.
00:39:08.94
Diane Harris
And so you know the research actually shows if you have workers of different ages, that is a more productive team that contributes more to the bottom line and it makes sense because you have older workers who are able to teach and mentor and who bring who bring deep expertise to the to the enterprise and you have younger workers who may bring a certain pace and energy and being more on the cutting edge of technology. I don’t want to do the slam against older people
00:39:47.76
Diane Harris
that we’re not technologically savvy, but you know, come on, we’re not as a group technologically savvy is right.
00:39:51.91
VARSITY
Sure, not digital natives.
00:39:55.78
Diane Harris
So there’s so much that you can learn to and enhance with each other. So I wish that there was more attention to the bottom line benefits. of having that workforce, but I don’t think that that’s the case. And I think that from a practical standpoint, thinking about how you can, you know, if you want to continue working, how you can continue to do that. It might not be as a staff member if you’re laid off. Other ways to contribute and keep your career vibrant. um It behooves older people to think about that from a practical standpoint.
00:40:35.11
VARSITY
That’s great. That’s great. Thank you. Well, now I’d like to shift and talk a little bit about something that I pay close attention to. And I certainly know a lot of people out there do as well. And that’s the slow but steady disappearance of printed magazines. And you know I still love getting i love getting the New York Times. We subscribe and get it on Sundays. And yeah there’s something tactile about having the printed
00:41:00.17
Diane Harris
Yeah.
00:41:00.22
VARSITY
piece, the you know the printed periodical coming in. you know and As we said at the beginning of our discussion, you were the deputy editor of Newsweek from 2020 to 23.
00:41:12.26
VARSITY
Now Newsweek had printed its last issue and shifted to digital only in 2012, if I’m not mistaken. then return to print again in 2014. You’re a part of the team tasked with reinventing Newsweek for the digital age. What were some of the biggest challenges you faced when reinventing Newsweek as a digital-focused publication?
00:41:31.59
Diane Harris
Yeah, and I will add to that that part of my, a big part of my responsibility at Newsweek was running the print magazine.
00:41:37.94
VARSITY
OK.
00:41:38.81
Diane Harris
You know, so it was a particular challenge there. So I think that, you know, in terms of reinventing for the digital age, you have to think about how do you maintain quality journalism when there is just a voracious appetite for content on the web, right? So one of the challenges, if what you need to do is just churn out lots and lots and lots of stories to attract your audience, which was the first wave strategy of big media companies
00:42:27.72
Diane Harris
turning to the web was just thinking we have to get all this traffic and we have to do it by publishing many, many, many more stories a day. But when you do that, quality often suffers.
00:42:38.95
VARSITY
Sure.
00:42:39.48
Diane Harris
And so the tension between publishing many more stories a day and figuring out how to maintain quality or at least maintain quality in in a portion of the enterprise I think was one of the great challenges and that that ah that media brands are still looking for. And then the second big challenge of a digital first publication.
00:43:11.26
Diane Harris
I almost hate that phrase these days, I have to say, because we’re all it’s all digital.
00:43:15.94
VARSITY
Right.
00:43:16.26
Diane Harris
It’s not digital first anymore. It’s just digital. And there may be a print component. And I’m a big believer in having a print component for brands where it makes sense. Newsweek is one of them.
00:43:28.19
Diane Harris
um But I think that the business model changed completely. And so media brands were used to relying primarily on either advertising income or subscriptions.
00:43:45.20
Diane Harris
to fund the enterprise and that’s no longer viable like it’s no longer viable to rely on either one or the other or even just those two you have to have you know a diversified way of generating revenue and if you’re good at it you have to have a diversified way of generating revenue that doesn’t interfere with journalistic integrity.
00:44:12.32
Diane Harris
And that has been the great the great challenge for not just Newsweek, but every large legacy media brand and digital upstarts.
00:44:13.63
VARSITY
That’s a great point.
00:44:24.78
VARSITY
Sure. Lots of sponsorship opportunities, but you want to make sure that the integrity of the journalism is still there.
00:44:31.72
Diane Harris
Yes, well, so an example is there are lots of media properties that that have some sort of relationship with retailers and high quality ones. like Let’s take the highest quality one, the New York Times, in my opinion.
00:44:53.65
Diane Harris
Has you know a brand within the larger brand called wire cutter which is a consumer product. Research and recommendation site and there they do a terrific job I think it’s really high quality I love wire cutter.
00:45:10.11
Diane Harris
But part of the strategy is to get and, and you know, there’s, and it’s fully disclosed that you get a, you know, a commission, basically, you know, for any time somebody purchases through that. So, there’s nothing wrong with the quality of the recommendations, they’re not recommending things just because they have a relationship with them.
00:45:31.83
Diane Harris
But what they are doing, and CNN does it, and Newsweek does it, and Forbes, you know, everybody is doing it these days, is that they there’s a barrage of emails and newsletters and exhortations to buy, buy, buy, buy. And that is not in readers or consumers’ best interests. And so that’s problematic, let alone the lesser quality sites that may be recommending things.
00:45:59.59
Diane Harris
because they have a relationship with the retailer. i don’t want to you know like Both things go on. The highest quality ones don’t do that.
00:46:04.19
VARSITY
Sure.
00:46:05.89
Diane Harris
I mean, they don’t. But it’s problematic. It’s very tangled.
00:46:12.61
VARSITY
Sure.
00:46:12.72
Diane Harris
And I think that’s still in the process of being sorted out.
00:46:15.78
VARSITY
It is interesting because obviously, you know, whether we use the term digital first or what have you, when you’ve got commerce happening online and the information being presented online, it does really blur the channel.
00:46:28.99
VARSITY
So it it becomes one and the same.
00:46:29.63
Diane Harris
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that. And it’s, it’s something that we just really as an industry media has to sort out. um Because, you know, maybe I’m a little too Pollyanna ish about this, but I really believe that, that at its core, you have to have journalistic integrity.
00:46:57.03
Diane Harris
And that that will bring readers, that will bring you know that will bring what you want to happen to the bottom line. But you have to do it with integrity and care for your readers.
00:47:10.34
VARSITY
That’s great. Now, do you see a day when the printed media disappears entirely?
00:47:16.95
Diane Harris
Again, I don’t think I’m being Pollyanna here, but I don’t. I definitely think that that just as we’ve already seen, although I think i think a lot of the damage has already been done, maybe damage isn’t the word that other people would use, but sort of to me, I mean, we definitely will see less imprint, but just as you said, and kind of just the same that has happened with books,
00:47:52.66
Diane Harris
You know, people like the tactile sensation of being able to hold and you see, you read in a different way. So I think that print will stay around, but it’s often for a different purpose. Like you, I’m a New York Times subscriber, and Monday through Saturday, I’m all digital. And Sunday, I’m all about print. And what’s different there? because It’s because I’m reading for a different purpose.
00:48:21.51
Diane Harris
Monday through Friday, I’m reading for information.
00:48:22.72
VARSITY
Yep.
00:48:25.68
Diane Harris
I want the news. I want what’s going on. On the weekend, I’m reading more for pleasure and my personal interest. And when you do that, I think you want a different experience.
00:48:34.94
VARSITY
That’s a great point.
00:48:38.22
Diane Harris
And I think that happens with magazines. It happens with books. You see, I have, you know, I read all the time on my Kindle, but when I go to the beach or when I’m relaxing in my backyard and reading a book on the patio,
00:48:51.72
Diane Harris
I like to hold a physical book in my hand. It’s just a different, more pleasurable experience.
00:48:54.94
VARSITY
That’s great.
00:48:57.05
Diane Harris
And I think that’ll happen, that that that’s the fate of media. And I also think that it will stay around because it’s one of the reasons that Newsweek not only brought back print, but during my tenure, actually added issues to to to the number that we put out.
00:49:17.40
Diane Harris
and You have to, you know, media companies have to think about what is the value added of having something in print. And besides sort of the experience that we’ve just talked about, it is the kinds of sources and experts you can attract.
00:49:33.09
VARSITY
Yep.
00:49:33.15
Diane Harris
People, it still means something to people to be on the cover of Newsweek. Can’t tell you the number of people, well, but could I be on the cover? You know, we wouldn’t have had a cover story.
00:49:43.85
Diane Harris
We were the only magazine to have Prince Charles write for us. And he wouldn’t have done that if we hadn’t been able to, well, for a lot of reasons, but if we hadn’t put him on the cover.
00:49:53.32
VARSITY
Sure.
00:49:55.37
Diane Harris
Same with Dolly Parton. You know, people, that that means something. We’re world leaders. So I think that there is an authority conferred by print that will not go out of style and value that a print product can bring.
00:50:14.16
Diane Harris
And and i am I hope it stays around.
00:50:17.41
VARSITY
Well, it is interesting to think about how life has changed. I mean, if you think about even in music, everybody had you know sounded the death knell for physical media. And yeah there’s been a resurgence vinyl over the last 10, 15 years, something like that.
00:50:32.56
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:50:32.92
VARSITY
And it’s it’s really remarkable.
00:50:35.04
Diane Harris
Yeah. And I love that blend, you know, it’s I love that blend. And I just think that we have to define what is the value of whatever the platform or the medium is and under understand that they’re different. When we were looking to print and digital journalism to do exactly the same thing, maybe that was not the right way to think about it. Like what can print do for you and for your readers that you
00:51:08.06
Diane Harris
can’t do digitally or that would be enhanced by having a print product. And I think that that is the same thing when it comes to books and end with music too, that they should not be doing this same thing. and There’s overlap, there’s huge overlap, but long-form journalism, often as it’s a better read in in print.
00:51:32.66
Diane Harris
or it’s enhanced by having a print component. So I think people have to think about that.
00:51:38.13
VARSITY
Sure. now Now these shifts, what what’s the impact on journalism? We’ve talked about that a little bit and you shared some thoughts. Has the transition to digital changed the way stories are researched, written or edited?
00:51:50.20
Diane Harris
Yeah, you know, I, i they definitely have. And I think that some of the changes, more of the changes in my mind uh having been around for a while or or not good ones but there are some things that are good as well so i’m going to start with the good ones because you rarely hear that and as a journalist and especially one now who i’ve gone back and forth between editing and managing and writing my entire career and i’m in a phase where i’m doing
00:52:11.22
VARSITY
Mm hmm.
00:52:25.67
Diane Harris
probably 50-50. But in the writing portion of things, the amount of research and data and access to sources that the digital world has unveiled is phenomenal.
00:52:44.08
Diane Harris
what would take me What would have taken me so long early in my career to identify sources, to get their research, to read it, to figure all of that out is instantaneous. It’s just you know phenomenal in a really, really good way. And you can find better sources, people who are better suited,
00:53:09.06
Diane Harris
you can find the data, you can look at the trends, it’s it enhances the stories by, you know, multiple factors. So I think that that’s great. I think that we talked about this voracious appetite for content and the need to post many, many, many stories has made the reporting thinner has you know fewer sources, fewer you know whole stories written just by background research or by talking to somebody via email. Not the same thing as deeply reporting and interviewing someone and talking to them.
00:54:01.32
Diane Harris
not the ability to spend time with the writing on the craft of what we do. It’s not just great reporting that makes a great story. It’s great writing.
00:54:10.61
VARSITY
Sure.
00:54:10.99
Diane Harris
And so there’s just not time for that. And by the same token, there’s not time for the same amount of editing. So there are more mistakes. There’s more misinformation.
00:54:22.92
VARSITY
So as a journalist, I’m sorry go ahead.
00:54:23.18
Diane Harris
And yeah, I’m just like so that is sad for me.
00:54:28.76
VARSITY
Yeah, I was just going to ask and sort of interrupt but how in, you know, with all of the resources online and AI and everything else, how are you sure.
00:54:41.42
VARSITY
that the background, obviously if you’re talking to somebody, that’s firsthand, but how can you be sure that the content that you’re reviewing is legitimate or something that you can trust as a reporter?
00:54:53.46
Diane Harris
Yeah, well, going to trustworthy sources. So like if you’re if you’re looking for research on a particular topic and studies and you know the academic institution and where the researcher has come from, you really have to pay attention to the quality of your sources and the institutions that are providing the data.
00:55:17.51
VARSITY
Sir.
00:55:18.14
Diane Harris
so And think about, because sometimes we are talking to sources who have a bias, and we’re talking to them because of that bias. like It’s not always like because they have a particular perspective. But as a reporter, you really have to be aware of that and under understand what might cause them to say or to have the perspective that they have and take that into account. You really have to do more vetting of your experts and your source materials then than you did a decade ago.
00:55:59.22
VARSITY
Great point, great point, thank you for that. So we’ve talked about some heavy things today, and I wanna have a little fun before we wrap up our discussion. I’m gonna name some iconic magazines, and you tell me if you think it’s still in print.
00:56:12.04
Diane Harris
Oh, this is a scary quiz for journalists. Watch me fall flat on my face here.
00:56:16.84
VARSITY
Well, what we we’re not out to expose anything, but just curious to see.
00:56:18.18
Diane Harris
That’s okay. That’s okay, yeah.
00:56:22.19
VARSITY
So 17, 17 magazine.
00:56:24.79
Diane Harris
Oh my goodness, 17.
00:56:29.16
Diane Harris
17, digital only.
00:56:31.34
VARSITY
You’re right, it’s not in print. It shifted in 2019 to be digital only. How about Life magazine?
00:56:37.92
Diane Harris
Oh, Kaput, no, yeah.
00:56:40.80
VARSITY
Yep, it was not it’s not in print. It shifted in 2000 and again in 2007, made a comeback in 2004 as a printed weekend supplement, but stopped printing again in 2007.
00:56:43.50
Diane Harris
Yeah.
00:56:49.15
Diane Harris
Right.
00:56:51.57
VARSITY
Good, two for two.
00:56:51.99
Diane Harris
Yes.
00:56:53.49
VARSITY
Rolling Stone.
00:56:55.28
Diane Harris
Print.
00:56:55.99
VARSITY
Yep, yes, still in print. Reader’s Digest.
00:56:58.85
Diane Harris
Print.
00:57:00.34
VARSITY
You got it. Popular science.
00:57:03.51
Diane Harris
Oh, my goodness, popular science. Okay, that’s Hearst, right?, hmm, popular science. I’m going to say print.
00:57:14.85
Diane Harris
No.
00:57:14.82
VARSITY
Not in print, it shifted in 2021, but close.
00:57:17.35
Diane Harris
Okay.
00:57:18.67
VARSITY
Okay, and then last one, one that actually my parents started subscribing to before I was born, and we have them all in our house, National Geographic.
00:57:29.65
Diane Harris
Oh, wow. National Geographic. I should know this. I’m going to say not in print.
00:57:40.51
VARSITY
It is still in print, however, they stopped printing for newsstands just this last year and they’re only doing print for subscribers so it’s kind of
00:57:41.72
Diane Harris
Oh, good.
00:57:50.30
Diane Harris
Oh, that’s interesting, because that’s what I was thinking about. you know like It’s funny, when you when you mention that, what I what what i default to is a mental picture of a newsstand.
00:57:59.97
VARSITY
Yeah, absolutely. So you’re you’re you’re right in that regard.
00:58:03.23
Diane Harris
So I get half a point.
00:58:04.38
VARSITY
i’ve heard I saw the headline earlier this year that, yep, half a point. I saw a headline earlier this year that they were stopping printing. And you know my heart stopped for a moment, and then realized it was only for the the the newsstands.
00:58:15.15
Diane Harris
Yeah.
00:58:17.30
VARSITY
So.
00:58:17.78
Diane Harris
Well, and that’s, you know, I mean, there’s an example, and actually it’s true for life to me, beautiful photographs seen in print, like, I mean, certainly digitally they could, there the you know, and it especially in an immersive template, can be beautiful, you know, are beautiful also, but in a different way.
00:58:25.26
VARSITY
Mm-hmm.
00:58:35.97
VARSITY
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
00:58:38.42
Diane Harris
I like to see photographs that are printed.
00:58:40.57
VARSITY
I agree. I agree fully. And I do think that National Geographic is one of the more, if not the most popular Instagram account, certainly within the the media world, for for that exact reason because of the imagery.
00:58:49.91
Diane Harris
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah.
00:58:52.86
VARSITY
but So one final question. What have you learned that you wish you could have told your younger self?
00:58:55.47
Diane Harris
Yes, sir. Yeah. You know, kind of like what I’m looking forward to as I’m aging, some of that answer is the stuff that everybody says. You know, I do wish that as someone who came to fitness and exercise late in my life, like, you know, like you know what they tell you about like exercising and eating right and everything like that’s true you should you should really do that stuff and it makes such a difference and and that’s you know uh doing it now so is starting to save early being more present and in the moment and nurturing
00:59:44.40
Diane Harris
the relationships in your life because that’s what will sustain you in the long run. All of that stuff that people say is true and things that, you know, listen when people say that stuff, I would say to younger Diane.
00:59:56.13
VARSITY
since That’s great.
00:59:58.85
Diane Harris
But I wanted to think about something that you might not always hear, at least this is what I would say to myself, and that is be bolder.
01:00:10.76
Diane Harris
I wish in my life that, you know, i’m I’m a person who, you know, none of us really like change, but i’m I’m really one of those incremental change kind of people. But being bolder has always rewarded me when i when when I’ve been pushed into it. and so maybe, you know, if I had taken a year to live abroad and see a different perspective, or I’ve lived in the greater New York metropolitan area my entire life, I’ve moved to a different area of the country and seen a different perspective. I just, or if when I was making a very good living as a journalist at Time Inc, you know, in a big
01:01:00.34
Diane Harris
Like if I hadn’t been quite so bound by golden handcuffs and had done something that that spoke more to my passion and and and took time to do that.
01:01:03.78
VARSITY
I love that.
01:01:11.92
Diane Harris
So just being bolder in your choices rewards you in the end and leads to a richer life. It’s not always about richer in the traditional sense of things.
01:01:24.59
VARSITY
Right.
01:01:25.88
Diane Harris
So that’s what I would say at the end of Diane.
01:01:28.67
VARSITY
That’s great. Well, Diane Harris, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve always always enjoyed our conversations, but thank you for spending you know such a good amount of time with us today. And thanks to everybody for listening again.
01:01:41.74
VARSITY
We’ll be back again and in a couple of weeks with another episode of Roundtable Talk. I’d also like to thank Dave Schaffner, our producer, and Matt Campbell, our engineer.
01:01:51.02
Diane Harris
Thank you.
01:01:51.07
VARSITY
Have a great day.
01:01:51.30
Diane Harris
It was my pleasure. It was a great conversation.
01:01:53.34
VARSITY
Bye, Diane.
01:01:54.70
Diane Harris
Bye bye.
