EP 02 / Rob Liebreich / CEO of Goodwin Living and Champion for Cognitive Health

Quotes

“Goodwin Living is a really special organization. It was founded in 1967 with the idea to support, honor and uplift the lives of older adults and the people who care for them.” (Rob)

“When your mom starts having challenges with remembering things, repeating conversations and getting lost in familiar places, you want to do something about that.” (Rob) 

“We figured out from (studies) that nursing home residents that if you can engage them in numeracy and reading out loud and handwriting you can see individuals cognitive decline plateau and, in some cases, actually improve.” (Rob) 

“What was intriguing about the initial research from George Mason was that we saw consistency. With 23 minutes a day, on average, doing the combination of these three things – reading out loud, handwriting and simple math done quickly – people could see statistically significant improvement in their brain health.” (Rob)  

“After 12 weeks of doing the program, folks that identified with mild cognitive impairment based on testing saw the most dramatic improvement – 26% improvement in their cognitive scores.” (Rob) 

“The simplicity of the work allows for most people to connect to pathways (in the brain) that are already established and are still in there.” (Rob) 

“These are simple tools that come in at such an easy level. We’re not asking you to do hard things. We’re not asking you to change your diet dramatically, we’re not asking you to learn how to tango or learn a new language. It’s just coming back to really simple things and it seems to be helping in a number of ways.” (Rob) 

Notes

Rob Liebreich is the CEO of Goodwin Living, a nonprofit dedicated to enriching older adults’ lives. Since joining in 2019, he’s expanded programs and championed innovative solutions like the StrongerMemory program, aimed at combating cognitive decline. Known for his dedication to staff support, Liebreich has fostered partnerships to address workforce needs, earning Goodwin Living recognition as a top workplace in the D.C. region.

Rob’s career began in telecommunications but he was inspired to join the field of senior living to take out the fear and anxiety that people experience and replace it with hope and purpose. 

The StrongerMemory program was inspired by Rob’s mother’s journey with cognitive decline. This innovative program engages the prefrontal cortex through daily activities like reading aloud, handwriting, and simple math, designed to enhance memory and focus. Created with personal motivation, StrongerMemory helps older adults maintain cognitive health and independence.

Cognitive decline affects approximately 1 in 9 adults over 65, with the risk increasing with age. While early signs are often mild, such as memory lapses, the condition can progress, impacting daily functioning for many older adults.

To evaluate its effectiveness of StrongerMemory, Goodwin House partnered with George Mason University’s (GMU) Department of Social Work on a multi-phase study to evaluate the StrongerMemory program, designed to support cognitive health in older adults through reading, writing, and math exercises. Findings reveal participants experienced improved memory, mental clarity, and life satisfaction, highlighting StrongerMemory’s potential in addressing subjective cognitive decline.

Transcript

00:02.19

Varsity

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Varsity’s Roundtable Talk. Our guest is someone with an important story to tell. A good and living president and CEO, Rob Liebrecht, the fight against dementia is personal. In 2011, Rob and his family noticed that their mother, Wendy, was experiencing early signs of memory loss, so they decided to do something about it.

 

00:24.06

Varsity

The result is the Stronger Memory Program, a program that uses reading, writing, and math exercises to strengthen the brain and reduce the effects of mild cognitive impairment. Rob, welcome.

 

00:35.90

Rob Liebreich

Great to be with you. Thanks so much.

 

00:38.18

Varsity

Thank you. And before we talk about stronger memory, tell us a little about yourself and Goodwin Living.

 

00:43.80

Rob Liebreich

Well, I grew up in Oregon and my mom, dad, brother, sister, really close to my grandparents and family, moved out to the East Coast for school and stuck around for a long time.

 

00:56.23

Rob Liebreich

So and that’s a little bit about me, a wife, three kids, a dog, all the all the good things, love to travel, love people, and really becoming a big fan of brain health these days for obvious reasons.

 

01:01.91

Varsity

Hahaha

 

01:08.64

Rob Liebreich

And then Goodwin Living is a really special organization, started in 1967 with the idea to to support, honor and uplift the lives of older adults and the people who care for them, focused through an Episcopal affiliation and lens, and really serving now today in the and the Northern Virginia, DC area, about 3,000 older adults.

 

01:31.83

Rob Liebreich

on a regular basis. and And then nationally, if you count all the programs we’re doing, we’re we’re over 40,000 people, lives touched. So doing a lot of important work right now.

 

01:40.12

Varsity

That’s amazing. And I do love how you’ve taken it outside the footprint of Northern Virginia and and the DC Metro. So that’s that’s wonderful.

 

01:49.28

Rob Liebreich

Thank you. Thank you. It’s been with great intentionality. I think COVID actually was a big part of that, Derek, in terms of showing us how critical path it was that if if someone had something and someone else like your neighbor didn’t, how critical it was to share and and uplift that neighbor and and go without for a little bit if you had to, but how important that was.

 

02:10.10

Rob Liebreich

So we’re leaning into that.

 

02:10.51

Varsity

That’s great. So what inspired you to pursue a career in aging services?

 

02:16.36

Rob Liebreich

So I started off in telecommunications actually, a very different field. And I was traveling with my now wife and we came back from a trip and we ended up back in Oregon with my grandmother, my dad’s mom, Grandma Lee, about to move into a senior living community.

 

02:34.84

Rob Liebreich

And the day before that move took place, I sat by her bedside as she passed away. And it just hit me so strongly that I needed to join this field. I needed to bring whatever I could energy-wise and talent-wise to try to take out the fear and anxiety in the process that people experienced and try to replace it with hope and purpose.

 

02:56.84

Rob Liebreich

And I think my grandma was excited for the move, but really quite anxious. And I think it didn’t help with her and her health. so

 

03:05.68

Varsity

Sure, sure. Well, that’s a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. So let’s talk about Stronger Memory. I’m familiar with the program’s origin story, but for our viewers and listeners, tell us about why you created the program and and your mother’s involvement with it.

 

03:19.49

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, so like anyone else, I’m i’m a son first. And so when your mom starts having challenges with remembering things, repeating conversations, and actually getting lost in familiar places, which is quite scary, you want to do something about that. So that’s what 2011 was about. Here I was nine years in service in our field, and my mom was showing these signs of cognitive challenge, brain health challenge. And I thought to myself, there has to be a solution. I’ve i’ve been in the field long enough, almost a decade at that time.

 

03:54.19

Rob Liebreich

And so I looked around and and clearly, you know, there’s no cure for dementia even today, all these years later. We’re getting closer with a lot lot of work on prevention side, but no cures. And so we we did some testing with my mom. And yes, indeed, she had a mild cognitive impairment, which is often a precursor to full-on dementia. You know, maybe within five years, about 40, 50% of people go from mild cognitive impairment into full-on dementia.

 

04:20.84

Rob Liebreich

and And what that entails is losing the ability to really have your activities of daily living be controlled by yourself. and And as you go into dementia, you now you need more support ah with people. So  your ability to to dress, bathe, toilet, eat, all those things move from place to place. Those are are what we consider activities of daily living.

 

04:40.94

Rob Liebreich

And so I saw this pathway that she was on and and her memory and her repetition was getting really challenged. So I didn’t think it was going to be, and unfortunately, one of those scenarios where, okay, you have mild impairment, but you can wait and it will get better or it will you know peter out and everything will be okay. And and and indeed it wasn’t heading that direction.

 

05:04.95

Rob Liebreich

But I feel like the world gives you gifts in a variety of ways, in a variety of places at different times. And one of the gifts I received was going to a conference and learning about work that was being done for over 20 years in Japan. And they had figured out with nursing home residents that if you could engage them in numeracy and reading out loud and handwriting and that you could actually see ah individuals cognitive decline plateau and in a number of cases improve. And this was with nursing home residents. So if it could happen with nursing home residents who needed the most care, I figured what if we could bring something upstream ah to someone like my mom who certainly isn’t in a nursing home at that stage? What if we could bring those same tools to her

 

05:54.62

Rob Liebreich

and get her going. And that’s exactly what we did. I was able to introduce to her the concepts. She started to read out loud, ah do handwriting, which was her journaling actually. And then finding math problems is probably the hardest part, like finding consistent math problems for her to do that were easy and not to worry about how how complicated they were. And then I would say within 30 days,

 

06:20.29

Rob Liebreich

We’re starting on those efforts. ah We started to see dramatic shift in her cognitive abilities. And we weren’t seeing the repetition nearly as much. She wasn’t forgetting her conversations. And her ability to get from place to place was improving ah dramatically, all within that 30-day window of time. So pretty amazing.

 

06:39.81

Varsity

but That is amazing. So you actually essentially designed the program yourself from, I don’t want to say from scratch, but largely from scratch based on what you learned from this conference.

 

06:51.57

Rob Liebreich

Yes, i don’t I still don’t know exactly all the details of of what they did at the the other organizations back in Japan and and the conference. we We saw a little bit of of the work they had completed in the nursing homes, but the the concept concepts were universal and they were easy, right?

 

07:06.41

Varsity

Mm hmm.

 

07:07.17

Rob Liebreich

It’s reading out loud. I mean, i can I could figure out how to pull that together from my mom.

 

07:08.75

Varsity

Sure.

 

07:10.77

Rob Liebreich

I was writing by hand. I could figure out how to pull that together and then finding math problems for her to do consistently. Really at a first, second, grade level. So not not trying to engage in in what often we talk about ah these days about neuroplasticity, the ability for the brain to learn new things, but really reverting back to old pathways and really trying to clear those pathways with materials that we all learned way back when in first, second grade and got reinforced again and again and again. So yeah, we we ended up creating just a

 

07:42.44

Rob Liebreich

ah curriculum for her and and cobbling together a number of things. And then ah really having a conversation, I remember it very distinct distinctly.

 

07:46.38

Varsity

Yeah.

 

07:51.72

Rob Liebreich

I was at a and was in Seattle serving in an assisted living memory care community, part of Aegis Living, Aegis on Madison. I was working with this lady. I was a dear friend, ah Judy Wadsworth, and she had met my mom She said, your mom your mom’s doing really great, ah and what are you going to do for others? And I thought, oh, okay, good point. like ah I was having some success with my mom, but it was it was just my mom. And now we were a couple of years later.

 

08:20.85

Rob Liebreich

and You know, what else could we do for others? And so we started to embark on really creating an intentional ah program, not just calling together here and there, but what if we could really curate a curriculum? And I worked with the occupational therapist and someone who’s also an educator who had taught and a number of places throughout the world. Helen Halpern, and she’s she was great. We spent a year working together to figure out all the details of you know the the math problems, the right math problems, the right reading prompts, the right writing prompts, and and created the the first edition, if you will, of the material that now is a stronger memory program.

 

09:01.27

Rob Liebreich

and we

 

09:01.23

Varsity

That’s great. Now is she with, sorry, was she with George Mason?

 

09:05.02

Rob Liebreich

No, she was back in Seattle. She was back in Seattle.

 

09:06.61

Varsity

Okay.

 

09:08.02

Rob Liebreich

So this is this predates the George Mason work. And yeah, eventually we did.

 

09:11.34

Varsity

You took it to George Mason, correct?

 

09:14.87

Rob Liebreich

So from that original design of that program, we rolled that out in Seattle and with an assisted living memory care group of residents. And just like with my mom, within 30 days, I started to see ah remarkable outcomes.

 

09:29.28

Rob Liebreich

ah we had We had residents who, and moved in who had not been able to remember their their loved one’s names. And as soon as they started doing this program, again, within about 30 days, ah the recall of the names was coming back. And you can imagine the emotional impact that that has on a family.

 

09:49.61

Rob Liebreich

And ah we saw people sleeping better, eating better, like all these factors that it was it was powerful. And so that that was powerful and and awesome to see.

 

09:57.44

Varsity

Yeah.

 

10:03.49

Rob Liebreich

i I then made a move for for family reasons back to the East Coast. And while while back here thought, gosh, we really need to have this in the hands of as many people as possible.

 

10:14.20

Rob Liebreich

So we recalibrated the curriculum, redesigned it, and created a whole new version. And that really came out in 2019 under the stronger memory ah moniker. And ah Good When Living as an organization agreed to, my family donated that to too Good When Living, and they agreed to allow us to you know to spread the word. And while we were starting to do that, we hadn’t really thought too much of having a research partner join us. ah But soon within, ah we started to do a pilot program really in 2022 with residents at Goodwin House Alexandria and Goodwin House Bailey’s Crossroads. And we we sought out couples in particular because we thought, gosh, if you have someone who’s had mild cognitive impairment or early dementia, they have a loved one, they can partner up, they can be held accountable to do the work because doing the work is probably the most important and hardest part

 

11:08.76

Rob Liebreich

And they started doing ah their work. We saw similar outcomes. ah These were with mostly independent living residents with a spouse that had some challenges. And we brought that that research. We did ah pretesting on everyone to do a baseline cognitive test.

 

11:24.75

Rob Liebreich

And then we brought all that research to George Mason, who was really interested. The social work team there ah was really interested in doing research on it because they seek out non-pharmacological approaches to dementia.

 

11:39.71

Rob Liebreich

And so they they reviewed our research and said, this is, this is good. This is compelling, ah but let us do our own research on it. Right. Let us see. And so they, they went ahead and they, they ah ended up having over a hundred people that they did their own cognitive tests, pre and post testing on.

 

11:57.58

Rob Liebreich

And the results were were really affirming what we’d already seen with my mom, residents, et cetera.

 

12:01.23

Varsity

It’s great to have that validation.

 

12:03.67

Rob Liebreich

So powerful.

 

12:05.04

Varsity

Yeah, that’s that’s that’s wonderful. Were there any surprises through that testing?

 

12:09.79

Rob Liebreich

I think the surprise ah to the testing was that we you know they had over 100 people and they were from all over the country because by that time we had been able to team up with a group called Village to Village Network. And so there’s a ah big movement of foot in the country to try to age in place.

 

12:29.45

Rob Liebreich

And to be able to support that, there are ah neighborhoods that are coming together in collectives. And so we had we had tied in with that organization. There are about 50,000 members throughout the country. So we had we had already started to work with ah village groups in California and and really all the all the way through Massachusetts, back into Virginia, et cetera. So we had a ah good sampling of people throughout the country. And I think what was intriguing about the initial research from George Mason was that ah we saw this consistency. It was it was great to see. I don’t think it surprised me, but it was nice to see that regardless of where you’re at, ah that with 23 minutes a day on average, 23 minutes a day on average of doing the combination culmination or the combination of these three things, reading out loud, handwriting, and simple math, and quickly, ah that people could see statistically significant improvement in their brain health.

 

13:25.64

Varsity

remarkable.

 

13:25.92

Rob Liebreich

and And that you could take someone, there’s ah there’s a group within that 100, over 100 individuals that were tested that were identified to have mild cognitive impairment.

 

13:37.48

Rob Liebreich

And for that group, not dissimilar to my mom, that group showed the greatest improvement, the greatest improvement. So after 12 weeks, which is the prescribed amount of time we want to get someone started on the program, after 12 weeks of doing the program, ah folks that had identified with mild cognitive impairment based on the testing, they saw the most dramatic improvement, 26% improvement in their cognitive scores.

 

14:00.78

Varsity

Wow.

 

14:03.06

Rob Liebreich

really taking them from being in a mild cognitive impairment zone to normalizing. And so ah exactly with what I had experienced with my mom. And it just is a really big a positive outcome and to think about what that could do for for so many. and That if as a country, we could take people from a mild cognitive impairment stage and get them normalized, so to speak,

 

14:29.25

Rob Liebreich

Knowing that the disease is still doing its thing, they’re still still happening. We’re not solving a disease, but we’re pushing off certainly the symptoms, it seems like, ah that we could push it off for years. And and that’s a powerful outcome.

 

14:38.69

Varsity

And to your point earlier, it wasn’t, you know, not using, you know, drugs or meds or any of the pharmacological kinds of solutions and simply, you know, driving up those costs and and dependencies and such.

 

14:51.98

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, that’s right. I mean, there are there are a lot there’s a lot of good work happening from the pharmaceutical ah manufacturers, et cetera, and and they’ve come out more recently with a few drugs that that seem to have some positive impact on mild cognitive impairment, and they’re super expensive.

 

15:08.65

Rob Liebreich

and they have and they have side effects. And none of what we do has any side effects, and and we offer it through the Goodwin Living Foundation through generous donors to the foundation for free.

 

15:11.03

Varsity

who that’s That’s fantastic.

 

15:20.10

Rob Liebreich

ah we So that’s ah that’s our that’s our hope is that you can go ahead and try the drugs, but don’t don’t just try the drugs.

 

15:26.50

Varsity

Yep.

 

15:27.09

Rob Liebreich

Try try this first, or try this second, or try this in addition to, ah because the combination seems to be really, really powerful for folks.

 

15:35.47

Varsity

So you’ve talked about reading, writing, and I guess reading, writing, and arithmetic. And are any of those, do you think, more important, or is it truly the combination of those three, the three R’s?

 

15:48.80

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, I think when we look at the research and the background of of the origin of where this came from, I think the the thing that would be held up the highest regard is reading out loud. ah The thing that’s held in the highest regard is reading out loud. And when you talk with people who’ve gone through, if you’ve had a stroke and you’ve gone through stroke recovery,

 

16:09.53

Rob Liebreich

ah Reading out loud is a really important part of your language reacquisition, for example. ah Parkinson’s individuals really benefit from being verbally allowed about their reading so that they can maintain ah the muscles and and the brain ah pathways there. So I’m not surprised by that, but it is probably the most important part. ah We get a lot of folks that that enjoy the writing prompts and and the handwriting in particular, the motor skills to do that.

 

16:37.54

Rob Liebreich

ah The translation that your brain’s making from hand to to eye to brain coordination are really powerful. And then the math is really focused on speed of processing. The math is really a speed of processing tool. So one of the things that that I figured out or saw is that ah speed of processing in the brain, it slows down often with people, as the especially as you get older. And and so if you can keep the speed of processing abilities high, ah you seem to be able to operate better. And I was just having this discussion with ah with a resident or a prospect who who I talked with the other day, and she’s 91. And she says, well, you know my daughter tells me never to get in a car with with someone who’s 85 years or older.

 

17:24.91

Rob Liebreich

I thought, well, gosh, I mean, there’s a lot of people driving around who are 85 or older, but I think that the message that she was getting from her daughter was their speed of processing is is not as fast. ah The response time is not going to be as fast, and so it can become more dangerous.

 

17:40.11

Rob Liebreich

So this the math work that we do ah is it’s not difficult. It’s really meant to be simple math. And I think sometimes people ah when when they get into that, they realize, oh, you know, I can focus a lot better after I’ve done that part in particular. Even my father who.

 

17:59.37

Rob Liebreich

He’s seen my mom go through this journey and and knows the success. He’s been resistant to to doing the same work that she does. But nowadays, he’s he’s reading out loud, which is great to see. And he definitely leans in on the math problems when he wants to focus. So if he has to do his taxes or something else right before, he’ll do a math sheet or two, get his brain calibrated for focusing, and then go forward from there. so But reading out loud, probably first,

 

18:26.89

Rob Liebreich

I would say the math problems from a speed of process in second and then the handwriting comes in third.

 

18:32.41

Varsity

Interesting. that’s That’s great. Now you mentioned, pardon me just now and earlier, about how simple the the the exercises are. And they’re designed to be that, not just in the amount of time it takes, but the exercises themselves. Talk a little about the reason for the simplicity.

 

18:49.46

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, so ah you know I should have copy added. I’m not a doctor. I’m not a neuroscientist.

 

18:52.92

Varsity

Sure.

 

18:54.53

Rob Liebreich

I’m a son ah with a passion. And so i’m not I’m not a full expert in all these areas. But what I would say is, in our experience, that the simple allows for most people to connect to pathways that were already established and are still in there, ah regardless of where people are at in their cognitive journey.

 

19:13.71

Rob Liebreich

I think one of the big surprises that I have heard constantly is from our clinicians, ah the people that are providing hands-on care, the nurses, the doctors, where they go, I didn’t know that person had this capacity.

 

19:25.91

Rob Liebreich

I didn’t i didn’t realize this person could read out loud.

 

19:25.74

Varsity

Hmm.

 

19:28.27

Rob Liebreich

I couldn’t ah couldn’t imagine them doing math sheets, right? So ah just surprising again and again how strong the brain can be and when engaged, how ah powerful it can be and so that’s that’s the goal of keeping it simple is so you’re you’re really connecting with neuro neuro pathways that were established long ago and i think it’s it’s like the idea that that because we’re going back we’re reverting back ah we’re connecting so deeply to things that that’s where the brain’s feeling oh yeah this is comfortable

 

20:01.05

Rob Liebreich

ah you know I remember this a little bit, and and then the next part of ah that is or it’s it’s making other things better. you know why Why is someone sleeping better? Why is someone eating better because of these factors? That part, it’s ah you know the miracle of the brain, which I think we’re still uncovering and figuring out, but I do recall also my mom you know she the The simple part is typically about ah reading ah doing the math problems. We get a lot of questions about that. Why is it so simple? And and the answer is, well, you know just keep it a simple so anxiety doesn’t take hold.

 

20:38.19

Rob Liebreich

You know, too much anxiety when you’re doing a test or math problems in particular offsets the benefit of the work. And we saw this with my mom a few years in when she called and said, Rob, you know, this has been great. great I’m glad I’ve had these years, but it’s not working anymore.

 

20:54.12

Rob Liebreich

And I thought, oh, you know, that that’s a sucker punch. what What’s going on, mom? Like, is dad snoring too much? Is he keeping you up, you know, too too much? ah what What else? What are the stressors you’re having? You know, you have but vitamin deficiencies. There’s all kinds of things that could be at play. You know, urinary tract infections, those type of things. None of those were in play. And I thought, okay, well, tell me about what kind of math you’re working on right now, mom.

 

21:17.88

Rob Liebreich

And she said, oh well, I’m working in in you know sort of multiple ah digit ah division. And it’s really it’s frustrating, and it’s hard, and I’m not getting everything right. And you know it doesn’t feel good. And I thought, OK, this is the thing. Like, let’s revert back to Simple Mom.

 

21:34.93

Rob Liebreich

Let’s go back to simple addition. Let’s go back to simple ah subtraction. And if that changes, you know how you’re feeling, we’ll know really quick and and let’s do that.

 

21:45.45

Rob Liebreich

And within a week, ah she was back and reverted back to her good positive brain health. So no other interventions, just shifting away from division, harder division into simple math again.

 

21:52.88

Varsity

That’s great.

 

21:56.58

Varsity

I guess it’s you know when we think about going through grade school, elementary, you know middle school, et cetera, we’re trying to progress and in the complexity of the math problems in that example. Whereas here, it’s not about that at all. It’s just about exercising the the the brain, exercising the muscle of the brain.

 

22:13.95

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, that’s right. And I think the the part that I appreciate is that you don’t have to get the problems right.

 

22:20.38

Varsity

Mm-hmm.

 

22:21.23

Rob Liebreich

We actually don’t care. We don’t even provide a an answer key ah to the problems because it’s not about getting it right. It’s about doing the problems and in having your brain get into that rhythm.

 

22:32.31

Rob Liebreich

Now my mom is competitive and she would say, I wanna know if I’ve got it right as well.

 

22:33.95

Varsity

Haha.

 

22:36.85

Rob Liebreich

and So you know there’s plenty of ways to find out the answer or to have someone else check your work type of thing after, but I think that’s a ah critical discussion. Keep it simple and then try to keep it as engaging as possible.

 

22:50.02

Rob Liebreich

you know I think we provide hundreds of pages of math sheets, but people still get through them fairly quick. And we say, well, okay, instead of doing it in the same order that you did before, you know try it in a reverse direction or or jump around the page or start you know in a different way.

 

23:04.86

Rob Liebreich

Or go find you know go to the local store and buy more you know you know first grade, second grade math programs and do those. We don’t have a monopoly on anything. We’re not charging for anything.

 

23:15.97

Varsity

Sure.

 

23:17.04

Rob Liebreich

ah we’re We’re trying to get people to get into a habit, and that’s the most important. So however people can get into the habit, yeah play some games with themselves, reward themselves for the work that they’re doing, a daily you know a star in the calendar, or you know a special cookie or something you get after you’re completing the work, something is really important.

 

23:34.93

Rob Liebreich

and And I would say that’s definitely something we’ve seen as part of the outcome of this is the socialization factor is is important, can be important. The work itself, it it works by itself one-on-one, it’s great.

 

23:49.09

Rob Liebreich

When you start to work it with other people in a social setting, ah we try to encourage people to come together at least once a week ah to have an accountability group. ah so that you you don’t just you know try it out for a week and stop, but you are called back up like, hey, come, come, let’s talk about how things are going. ah So when you have to be accountable to a group of people who are on the same journey with you, ah you you stay more compliant and doing doing the work at least four days a week, really five to seven days a week is is necessary to start to see the the impact.

 

24:21.26

Varsity

That’s great. That’s great. Now the Alzheimer’s Association reports that 15 to 20% of those over age 65 have some sort of mild cognitive impairment. It’s about 10 million people in the US, you know, 38% of individuals with MCI developed dementia after five years, according to the the research. Your program was created for people in the MCI phase, but can the program be used proactively before mild cognitive impairment systems occur?

 

24:49.12

Rob Liebreich

Absolutely. You know, as I mentioned before, you know, some of the tools and they’re all basic tools ah really do help calibrate the focus. And I remember distinctly a resident at Guineau House Bay, these crossroads, which is like a great community and in Fairfax, Virginia. ah She came up to me and said, Rob, I don’t have any challenges with my co cognition. And so I appreciate your program, but I’m i’m not going to do it. I’m just not going to use it.

 

25:14.50

Rob Liebreich

And I thought, okay, no problem. And she said, but i do I do read the Bible every day. I said, okay, that’s great. And she said, I had to happen reading it out loud every day. I said, well, that’s great. That’s great. That’s perfect. That’s exactly what we hope you would do. And she said, and I have to tell you, my focus is so much better.

 

25:33.42

Rob Liebreich

Great, so it doesn’t it doesn’t require having a mild cognitive impairment diagnosis to benefit from this work and engaging your brain in this way. And I think that’s that’s what we’re really trying to infuse is that most people are already doing things like reading reading the news, reading a book, reading something, just read it out loud. yeah and And if you can just add that element, it really has an impact and engages so much more of your brain. And so there’s there’s real benefit to it.

 

26:02.80

Rob Liebreich

So yeah, it it could definitely help people even before this stage. And I would say my mom’s journey so far, ah it’s been 11, 12 years, 12 years now and that she’s been doing this work.

 

26:15.75

Varsity

Wow.

 

26:17.67

Rob Liebreich

And so and we’re we’re talking with people who’ve been in the program for at least three, four years now. And they would say, you know, stay with it and in the number of folks who didn’t have, you know, a diagnosis before ah benefiting from doing the work and and sort of staving off maybe what could become a diagnosis later.

 

26:35.55

Varsity

That’s great, so you’ve developed the program, but it’s not even about the program, it’s about the core tenets of it. And and like you said, if if reading the Bible or the news or whatever it is in your normal cycle, just you know bring those those core tenets into whatever it is you do on a daily basis.

 

26:51.87

Rob Liebreich

Yes, exactly. If we can infuse it into your daily rhythm, that’s the that’s perfect, right? That’s the best of all worlds.

 

26:57.19

Varsity

Yep.

 

26:59.08

Rob Liebreich

And so I think the hard part to do that, your reading is the easiest part. It’s also, as we talked about, probably the most important part of the equation. ah The handwriting prompts, they’re great. you know We provide over 200 and some handwriting prompts. They they create almost an autobiographical story of someone. ah they’re They’re fun. They’re engaging. I remember early on, we had a ah couple who’d been married for decades, maybe coming up ah over 60 years.

 

27:26.99

Rob Liebreich

and they started to do the work together. And that’s cri also important. So if you are, if you if someone has the material, you know, they go to strongermemory.org and they download the program and they they say, well, this is for someone else.

 

27:36.14

Varsity

Hmm. Hi.

 

27:39.35

Rob Liebreich

ah It’s really helpful if if you do it with that someone else instead of just handing it over to them and say, here’s here’s your homework. ah So a couple was doing it together and they were working through the prompts and they said, you know, we enjoy the program overall, but these prompts are fabulous.

 

27:53.56

Rob Liebreich

And we’re spending hours talking in ways that we hadn’t for years. And so that’s, this is so much encouragement ah for people to to get engaged in the prompts as well.

 

27:59.74

Varsity

That’s great.

 

28:04.46

Rob Liebreich

Yeah.

 

28:04.31

Varsity

Which gets back to your point about socialization.

 

28:06.65

Rob Liebreich

Exactly. Exactly. It’s powerful. that The socialization factor is really powerful.

 

28:09.02

Varsity

ye

 

28:11.65

Varsity

So what about folks with advanced mild cognitive impairment symptoms or even dementia? Is it ever too late?

 

28:19.64

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, I’m not an expert enough to say whether it’s ever too late or not, but I’ll tell you from my experience and in the work we’ve been doing throughout the state of Virginia in particular.

 

28:21.30

Varsity

Sure.

 

28:29.74

Rob Liebreich

So early on, we did apply. As we as were going through the program and and more and more people were using it, we were getting feedback from folks who had dementia ah or further on the path and saying, hey, this is helping me. This is working. And then we said, OK, if it’s working for folks, let’s see if we can help those furthest along in the dementia journey.

 

28:51.33

Rob Liebreich

And so we applied for a grant and we received it through CMS, ah you know, over $300,000 to roll out the program to 100 skilled nursing locations within the state of Virginia. And we’re we’re making great progress.

 

29:06.12

Rob Liebreich

We’re over’re we’re over 50% into the program right now.

 

29:07.86

Varsity

Great.

 

29:11.08

Rob Liebreich

And we’re being able to hear the stories of folks who really, in some cases, Derek, were catatonic and just non-responsive. And all of a sudden, they’ve they’ve been given the opportunity and encouraged to do some of the writing prompts or reading a little bit out loud consistently on a day-to-day basis.

 

29:29.39

Rob Liebreich

or doing some of the the numeracy work. Sometimes you can do math, but sometimes it’s just sort of checking, oh, this is the number one and seeing if they can track on that kind of level. And the stories of people coming back, if you will, from their state of ah not being communicative, not being engaged,

 

29:47.70

Rob Liebreich

ah we’ We’ve had so many stories, and and I remember that one one of the most heart-pulling ones was just a ah a wife who was in a nursing home in Virginia, hadn’t talked for over a year. Her husband was diligent, dedicated.

 

30:05.79

Rob Liebreich

And they were able to coax her into starting to do this work, the stronger memory work. And ah within a few within within a couple of weeks, she started to change. And she started to engage. And she started to be able to engage with her husband. And the the emotional benefit of that ah was is has just been tremendous. And so the team, this the staff there, the team there, the husband, the family,

 

30:32.89

Rob Liebreich

all Even though the program you know goes through sort of this 12-week course and people have to decide whether to continue, like they’re they’re all in. They want to you know keep things like that going.

 

30:39.79

Varsity

Right.

 

30:40.85

Rob Liebreich

So I do think the brain has tremendous power ah even as people are further along in their dementia journey or the brain health journey. And these are simple tools that you know, combat or come in at such a ah an easy level. And we’re not asking you to do hard things. We’re not asking you to change your diet dramatically. We’re not asking you to learn how to tango or learn a new language, right? It’s just coming back to really simple things. And and it seems to be helping in a number of ways.

 

31:10.65

Varsity

Those are remarkable stories, and what a gift to the individuals themselves, but to their family members, to you know not to seem too grandiose, but to society overall. I mean, this is something that the the world is facing in in greater numbers. So that’s that’s really remarkable. and And memory loss and dementia, ah you know I think In society, it’s it it has a certain stigma and and can be frightening parts of the aging process. But you know aging has highlights as well. what you know You’ve worked with older adults now for quite some time. What are you looking forward to as you age?

 

31:45.85

Rob Liebreich

As I age, I think one of the things I keep learning is ah people at all age really seek the opportunity for purpose in their day.

 

31:57.39

Rob Liebreich

and and not to underestimate the potential. So if you tie those two concepts together that people ah seek purpose and they have strong potential and you marry those two up, ah then you have an experience as you age that keeps you engaged, keeps you being able to make a difference in your world around you in a positive way. So that that’s what I would seek for myself are are those opportunities. And I can’t tell you I know what they are. I mean, I keep on coming across our residents at Go and Living who are you know starting to paint at the age of 90. They’re like, okay, sure, why not? Or or creating new you know music for the first time. They’ve never done that before, but they’re why not why not try it out? Or mentoring ah youth around them. That’s something that they weren’t doing you know regularly, but they’re really enjoying it now. so

 

32:49.79

Rob Liebreich

I think I’m got not going to be much different ah than a number of our residents or those older adults that I see today. ah Maybe my own parents who are staying active, ah want want to have a sense of purpose, don’t want to become irrelevant, don’t want to be forgotten, ah don’t want to be written off. And I think all of those parts are a critical path ah for for me as I age and certainly for for those that I serve today.

 

33:14.21

Varsity

I think that that’s a really important point that you make and you know through programs like Leading Age and with our work with our clients and and you know progressive clients like like Goodwin Living, you know we’re always trying to fight ageism. and I think that’s so important to recognize that that folks, regardless of age, want to you know be contributing members of society, whatever that might might mean. and But getting back to Stronger Memory, let’s talk numbers.

 

33:40.70

Varsity

how many communities are currently using the stronger memory program and how many people have used

 

33:47.03

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, overall, since we launched, and and I think you know we provided the curriculum in 2019, COVID came along, as we all know. So that that shifted things. We were doing things in person and then went to more of a virtual program really in 2020 when we were sort of testing ah with with our early pilot programs, with our residents, and our Goodwood Living at Home members.

 

34:10.67

Rob Liebreich

and And since then, in 2021 is when we really, I think June of 2021 is when we really put it out there to the world to download and and really come along. And since June of 2021, we’re tracking about 35,000 folks who have utilized the program.

 

34:27.48

Rob Liebreich

And that’s inclusive of, ah you know it’s such ah ah such an interesting variety of people. We have individuals you know downloading it for their own use. ah We have senior centers that have really started to adopt it widely across. ah We’ve had ah communities, you know settings, you know life life plan communities, et cetera, assisted living communities that have adopted it.

 

34:49.51

Rob Liebreich

and and And often we don’t know who they are or what they’re doing with it. We don’t we don’t really care. Actually, we want them just to use it. But we do we have built in more tools for for those folks, more facilitator trainings and things like that for free ah to encourage them.

 

35:04.49

Rob Liebreich

ah My mom has been on the circuit a lot, especially if you’re in Oregon, you probably have had her call you and say, hey, I’ve got a story I want to tell and a tool I want to provide for you.

 

35:06.50

Varsity

Great.

 

35:13.71

Rob Liebreich

And so she’s done a lot of talks leading age Oregon and a number of communities she’s been out to just telling her story and sharing the good news, if you will. So, and then we forget that village to village network, where we’ve probably worked with over 50% of those chapters now across the country, which is powerful and meaningful. And we’re starting to see even states, you know, we had a really important work with the state of Maryland.

 

35:39.32

Rob Liebreich

ah to roll the program out to to nearly 50 senior centers within that but then that ah environment. And it worked out great for those that participated. and We’re working with a number of states right now to to continue to build on on the energy. We’d love to get to a national platform. You know, love to work with the Veterans Administration.

 

35:58.38

Rob Liebreich

and other organizations to to be able to provide ah the pathway to it. And I would say we provide it for free. We provide free training, but it does take some promotion. It does take some encouragement to keep people going with it. ah So there’s not it’s not a cost from our vantage point, but there is a cost if you want to you know promote it and get people started with it. But yeah, we’re tracking about 35,000 folks. We’ve had some really good press.

 

36:23.19

Rob Liebreich

desert news Desert News in Utah ah did a nice publication for us, and we didn’t know that was gonna happen. ah we We ended up in ah and a program called Bottom Line Health, which has about 175,000 readers to it.

 

36:39.78

Rob Liebreich

there It’s a paid subscription service. A lot of interest has come from that, and and Jessica Fredrickson, who’s our our brain health director, wrote an article for that. And so we’re just seeing all these different ways, but I’m looking forward Right now, we’re working with a number of physician groups.

 

36:54.54

Varsity

Hmm. Hmm.

 

36:56.05

Rob Liebreich

Kaiser Permanente has started to work with us and just started to say, oh, maybe this is good for our patients. ah We love that. We love those kind of relationships. And we’re just coming around.

 

37:07.09

Rob Liebreich

We’ve done a number of different ah studies with George Mason, and we’re just coming into a control group ah study. ah which I think is sort of the gold standard for all these kind of ah programs to to say, yes, this works. ah we We know it works. I know it works. ah We’ve proven it out a couple of different ways. We even worked with ah people who are ah predominantly Korean speaking and had good success with that ah cohort and seeing where socialization really was highlighted as a key factor for you know doing even better with the program.

 

37:39.49

Rob Liebreich

So yeah, about 35,000 so far. and And hopefully if we do it right, you referenced the 10 million people love to get to a million people as soon as possible. Uh, and I know we’ve got to get to a hundred thousand before we do that, but and the more, more people that can use this, uh, the better. And I think as a country, we will certainly benefit from it. Cause you know, you and I ah know that there’s just not enough caregivers out there also. And that’s one of the big things that it’s driving us is.

 

38:06.35

Rob Liebreich

we see this huge, beautiful population growth of older adults.

 

38:09.59

Varsity

Yeah.

 

38:10.41

Rob Liebreich

And it’s coming exactly at the same time that we have fewer babies and our immigration policies are still getting figured out. So we’re not welcoming in as many caregivers as we need. So ah we need tools like this that that push off the need for care.

 

38:23.83

Rob Liebreich

That’s that’s our our our key focus. So when you have other guests on that are from the Senate or otherwise, you know, make sure you you help us ah get this push forward. That would be really, really great.

 

38:32.99

Varsity

Absolutely. and you know Adopting the program seems like an easy decision. you know you You mentioned that there certainly can be a cost for them to promote it, but why do you think more communities aren’t jumping on it yet? It’s available for free. what what What do you see as a ah barrier?

 

38:51.71

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, I think ah time is probably the biggest barrier that anyone has, both individuals and ah organizations. And so our our best situation is when we get a resident who says, Oh, I want to, I want to lead this. I want to volunteer to lead this for my other residents in our community. And and it’s so easy because as, as someone who’s a facilitator, what we call a facilitator, we say, you just need energy. You need positive energy.

 

39:17.31

Rob Liebreich

And to be able to you know come back every week or every day or however frequently,  that’s it. and And that’s all you need as key tools. So I think it’s really getting out the message of how simple it is, how effective is effective it is. I was just on a call today with ah but a group of CEOs. And one of them said, you know we’ve rolled this out. you They have a number of communities. but they said the two communities that chose to adopt it, it’s going great.

 

39:41.56

Rob Liebreich

People love it. It’s easy. It’s simple. It’s effective. Uh, there’s no cost to it. Right.

 

39:46.48

Varsity

Nope.

 

39:46.83

Rob Liebreich

Uh, but there’s still time. It still takes time. So you have to build it into your, your daily habit. And I think ideally what we’d say or hope for is if you’re in a community setting, if you’re in a community setting, you’re already doing all the parts.

 

40:01.31

Rob Liebreich

It’s just a matter of, of doing them in a slightly different way. So you’re already reading the daily news, probably if you’re an assisted living community. let’s ah Let’s not read it to people. Let’s have them you have our residents read it back to us. right Let’s have our memory residents read it back to us, not just read for them. ah Let’s have them do the writing prompts. Let’s have them have some fun and do some do some math ah together. I was at a a community in Oregon just visiting.

 

40:27.96

Rob Liebreich

My mom was checking out a place, ah Rose Villa, and it’s a great community. And I saw this beautiful piece of artwork and it was literally just flashcard numbers ah posted up on a piece of art.

 

40:39.33

Varsity

Hmm.

 

40:41.09

Rob Liebreich

I thought, perfect. What if we just you know put that into every community where where you have flashcard numbers that are just around in different settings. you know You go down the hallway and you can do your quick, simple math while you’re walking through the hallways.

 

40:53.17

Rob Liebreich

I just think there’s a lot of other ways that we can embed this into the experience where people will just not even realize that they’re doing the work, but they’re doing the work.

 

40:54.35

Varsity

That’s great.

 

41:01.66

Rob Liebreich

so

 

41:02.37

Varsity

That’s great. That’s great. Now, your director of brain hell, Jessica Fredrickson has talked about the value of mindfulness and meditation. Do you see the potential for the stronger memory program to ah expand to envelop mindfulness and and meditation?

 

41:19.01

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, I think there’s so many great tools. And one of the things that we we love doing is educating ourselves and then educating others on all these other, ah what’s going on in brain health, right? The discussions around brain health. So what you find out from us is yes, mindfulness and meditation.

 

41:37.66

Rob Liebreich

It can be really powerful, ah keeping stress low. and We talked about that anxiety factor, right, early. ah So keeping the anxiety low is is really powerful for the brain. And there’s a lot of other things that are powerful to the brain. you know Sleep, a critical path. and getting Getting enough ah consistent sleep, really, really important.

 

41:56.16

Rob Liebreich

and not enough people ah pay attention to that. you know I have this debate with my parents, like sleep isn’t waking up six times in the night. That isn’t consistent sleep. It might be happening. So let’s take a step back.

 

42:06.10

Varsity

Mm hmm.

 

42:06.78

Rob Liebreich

Let’s figure out how to get more hours ah consistently. ah But there’s there’s so many factors going on. And so I think mindfulness and meditation are a key area.

 

42:17.89

Rob Liebreich

I think there’s a lot of research that’s coming out. There’s so much good work happening right now. the the government is putting many more resources into ah this work, which is critical.

 

42:28.56

Rob Liebreich

And with all that said, I would say we’re not as an organization, we’re not experts in this area. what What we can come back to is we know that there’s some very simple tools that people everyone ki can execute with.

 

42:42.11

Rob Liebreich

We really encourage people to do that. ah and And then physical exercise. yeah Of all the things that are out there, ah keeping the blood flowing through the brain and making sure that that consistency happens you know and it gets elevated ah through good exercise, 20 to 30 minutes a day of physical exercise. Between physical exercise and this work of cognitive ah exercise, I really think those two parts together probably could push off the need for care for for for most people if they engaged an hour a day in those two areas.

 

43:17.09

Varsity

Great points. Good thoughts. So as we near the end of our time together, I want to give you an opportunity to speak directly to the people who are interested in the program. So if a community or or some organization doesn’t have to be a Lifeline community, is interested in adopting stronger memory program, how do they get started?

 

43:35.34

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, we try to make it as simple as possible and we keep on learning new ways to try to simplify the process. StrongerMemory.org is is the first thing to do. StrongerMemory.org. That will route you to a website where you can download the program. ah Today we offer the program in English or Spanish, electronic version for free. If folks want to get the book, it’s about, it’s almost about 200 pages. ah They can certainly order the book from us at cost. We we don’t charge a premium for that.

 

44:05.15

Rob Liebreich

either English or Spanish. And then if they want, there’s another option on that site, which says that if you want to be a facilitator, if you want to create a group. And we have groups starting up in synagogues and in mosques and in in churches all throughout the country. ah We’ve got groups starting in senior centers and civic groups. and We’ve got to make communities for sure at these village to village networks. There’s just a lot of different places where libraries are starting to get into it because, oh, we promote reading out loud.

 

44:34.88

Rob Liebreich

right So now you’re creating that that connection. So if if there’s anyone of your listeners that want to get started, strongermemory.org, and then choose your adventure. Do you want to download for yourself? Great. ah You want to download or send a book to someone else as ah as a gift? Great. Do you want to become a facilitator? Fantastic. And recognize that all of this is done through the generosity of donors. We don’t charge anything.

 

44:59.17

Rob Liebreich

ah But if if folks want to you know say, hey, i want I want to go help a million people ah with you, Rob, great. Let us know if you have some resource to help us do that, either publicity or a financial resource. And we definitely put it to good use.

 

45:12.93

Varsity

Well, that’s great. Well, we before we get to our final question, I’d love to hear about some of the other exciting initiatives that Goodwin Living has in store, particularly the Citizenship Playbook. We’ve talked a lot about that over over the the last you know a few years. Can you talk a little about that and anything else you’d like to share?

 

45:30.82

Rob Liebreich

Yeah, there’s so much going on with Good Will Living that is exciting. And thank you for the opportunity to share a little just a little bit. But you referenced the citizenship program that started with the idea of a resident back in 2018, the idea that our we our team members represent over 65 different countries in the world. And about a number of them, you know upwards of 25% to 40% of them are a global workforce that are not US citizens.

 

45:57.31

Rob Liebreich

And so ah the residents said, gosh, I’d really like to come around people to help them if they want to become US citizens on their path to US citizenship. And there’s a fees associated with that. And there’s a test that’s hard to get through. And so we have figured out a way to help over and coming up on over 200 people.

 

46:14.79

Rob Liebreich

ah towards their US citizenship. And we pay for the fees of the test, but now we also marry a resident with ah with a team member seeking that citizenship. So you get a resident mentor, which is back to that purpose equation that we talked about and and the potential ah that is within all of our residents. So really powerful program and we’ve extended it. and Now we’ve extended it to family members, not just Our initial ah team members, but if they have a loved one ah a child that they want to get into the US citizenship as well ah We’ll support that and and so that’s been that’s been really rewarding really powerful.

 

46:39.84

Varsity

for

 

46:50.77

Rob Liebreich

I’d say the other ah Exciting news for us in programming wise is our work on internships.

 

46:56.58

Varsity

it.

 

46:57.71

Rob Liebreich

ah we’ve We’ve had ah now I think this year over 50 paid internships also through our foundation and supported through the generosity of donors. And what that’s allowed us to do is is touch early the lives of high schoolers and college students and show them this field.

 

47:14.78

Rob Liebreich

And that’s allowed us to hire a number of them on as full-time team members, which is great. but more important to be able to share the story and for them to see. And as you come in as an intern, what do you think we do? We tie you to a resident mentor. ah So you also have those nice intergenerational actions and people walk away every time.

 

47:35.45

Rob Liebreich

i

 

47:35.54

Varsity

Hmm.

 

47:36.05

Rob Liebreich

just about universally saying, I didn’t realize how fun, how cool, how exciting, how meaningful ah that work was.

 

47:38.78

Varsity

Okay.

 

47:42.08

Rob Liebreich

So I’d say that internship program side is something that certainly could be should be replicated. The citizenship work should be, could be replicated by anyone ah following ah following us.

 

47:53.72

Rob Liebreich

We have a whole playbook on the citizenship side. We’re working on a playbook on the internship side. And then a newer venture for us is We have a number of very talented therapists that work in our, on our team. And we’ve decided that we want to make sure that not only do our current residents get really good fitness in programming exercise, as we talked about being another key elixir, uh, but that anyone can have access to, uh, to good physical exercise. So we have a library of of hundreds of videos for exercise that I think we’re going to start to call, you know, curate and get out to the rest of the world.

 

48:30.07

Rob Liebreich

if you will, and then we’re sponsoring classes. We’ve helped ah upwards of 2,000 people in low-income housing settings around Northern Virginia ah engage in physical consistent physical exercise. And we’re getting wait lists there ah from all of different backgrounds, all different socioeconomic backgrounds as well. But I think those are the areas that we’re really excited about.

 

48:51.06

Varsity

That’s great. Well, I hope you’ll come back in the future and tell us, go a little bit deeper in some of those, too, which sound really exciting.

 

48:58.03

Rob Liebreich

It would be an honor.

 

48:58.11

Varsity

That’s great.

 

48:58.82

Rob Liebreich

It would be an honor.

 

48:59.63

Varsity

That’s great. Well, one last question. We end each episode of Roundtable Talk with this question. What have you learned that you wish you could have told your younger self?

 

49:09.63

Rob Liebreich

I think for my younger self and when I talk to even our children, we have three young children about is ah believe that you can make a difference, find your path and keep going. And I think that’s exactly what’s happened you know with the stronger memory work. There was a real real reason you know for for the love and sake of of our mom ah that i I sought out solutions and then figured out a way to do something for her. but I i i had stopped at thinking that maybe it could help other people. And sometimes you need to listen to the sages around you, the prompts, the friends around you, like Judy Wadsworth in my in my case, to push you forward. And when that happens, like there’s a reason for it. So lean into it, be excited about it.

 

49:58.33

Rob Liebreich

I think I’ve done a decent job of that, but I can imagine if I if i had started this three years earlier, allowing everyone ah in on it, not just a certain ah small group, you know, how many more lives could have been positive positively impacted. So that that weighs on me a little bit, but it also pushes me to try to figure out, you know, as an organization, how can we get the word out? So really appreciate spending time with you and and being able to share.

 

50:22.98

Varsity

Absolutely. Well, you know that’s that’s very noble. But I have to say, it’s it’s it is amazing that you saw this need. you You kind of triangulated with this opportunity that you learned at the conference.

 

50:34.74

Varsity

And you put it together. And and and you know again, you’ve you’ve given this this gift to the world. And so thank you for that. And thank you for your time today. Really, really appreciate it.

 

50:46.47

Rob Liebreich

Thank you. Great joy.

 

50:47.90

Varsity

All right. Well, we’ll see you on the next episode of Roundtable Talk.

 

50:52.36

Rob Liebreich

Thanks again.

 

50:53.09

Varsity

Thank you.